Supreme Court Won't Hear Oracle v. Google Case, Leaving APIs Copyrightable And Innovation At Risk
from the dangerous-ruling dept
This is unfortunate, even if it was somewhat expected: the Supreme Court has now rejected Google’s request to hear its appeal over the appeals court decision that overturned a lower court ruling on the copyrightability of APIs. The lower court decision, by Judge William Alsup (who learned to code Java to understand the issues), noted that APIs were not copyrightable, as they were mere methods, which are not subject to copyright.
The appeals court ruling, by the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC) (famous for getting patent cases wrong over and over and over again) didn’t just get things wrong, it got things laughably wrong, confusing the difference between APIs and software throughout, and quoting people entirely out of context (including taking things so out of context that it often pitted people on the same side against each other, solely because CAFC misread what they were saying). The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, and we were shocked and dismayed to see the Obama administration further reinforce the errors of the CAFC ruling in telling the Supreme Court not to hear the case. The filing by Solicitor General Donald Verrilli repeatedly confused software with APIs and insisted that there was really no difference between the two. That’s just wrong. It’s not a matter of debate. It’s just wrong.
One would have hoped that with a ton of computer science experts explaining to the Supreme Court how CAFC got things wrong, the Supreme Court might recognize that the Obama administration was confused, but for whatever reason, the Supreme Court has declined to hear the case.
This is dangerous. The world of software and innovation relies on the kind of interoperability and the ability to connect via things like APIs. As we’ve noted, this is like claiming you can copyright an entire language, rather than the creative works written in those languages. Making APIs proprietary and locked up puts a ton of innovation at risk.
As for Google and Oracle directly, this probably doesn’t matter much. They’re two giant companies, certainly. And now that the case returns to the lower court, they’ll either settle or fight it out over fair use (and hopefully win on that front as well). But saying fair use allows this is very, very different than saying there’s no copyright on the API. And for smaller companies this will have a tremendous ripple effect, and will undoubtedly lead to a slower pace of innovation. The kinds of touchstones that people build on will no longer happen. Under this ruling, it basically overrules previous rulings that said pull down menus were not copyrightable. But with this ruling in place, it’s hard to see how that’s still true. Expect to see a bunch of ridiculous lawsuits over minor copying of functions like that.
While this case may eventually be resolved on fair use grounds (or through settlement), there are still two potential areas of hope. First, the “precedential” power of this ruling is actually somewhat limited. CAFC precedents are more or less meaningless in this context. CAFC handles all patent cases, and the only reason it heard this case was because it started as a patent case, even though those issues were resolved much earlier. So, while CAFC has made this particular ruling, it does not mean that the 9th Circuit, where this case was actually heard has to abide by it. The appeals court for the 9th circuit could rule otherwise (though it is somewhat famous for its own nutty copyright rulings).
Perhaps if this issue returns to another appeals court, and that court gets it right, the issue will return to the Supreme Court with a clear circuit split. And by then, we can hope, the people staffing the Solicitor’s General office will finally include at least one person who understands the difference between code and APIs.
The really stunning thing in all of this is just how factually wrong many of the arguments were, and that the CAFC and Obama Administration bought them. These weren’t questions of interpretation or opinion. They just flat out got the facts wrong, based on an astounding level of ignorance about a rather basic concept of an API not being software. Just because they both look like “code” does not make them both code. It would be nice if the people actually making these decisions weren’t so easily fooled by their own ignorance.
Filed Under: api, apis, cafc, copyright, donald verrilli, scotus, software, supreme court, william alsup
Companies: google, oracle
Comments on “Supreme Court Won't Hear Oracle v. Google Case, Leaving APIs Copyrightable And Innovation At Risk”
CAFC jurisdiction?
What exactly is the CAFC’s precedential jurisdiction – aka, who is bound by it and where?
Re: CAFC jurisdiction?
First of all, you know that some precedents are binding upon the courts, while other precedents may merely be pursuasive. There’s nothing wrong with a court being pursuaded by a precedent that it isn’t bound to follow—plenty of precedent for following pursuasive reasoning.
Now, to your question, here’s a resource, via Wikipedia references—
United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit: Court Jurisdiction
Re: Re: CAFC jurisdiction?
In other words, it doesn’t actually appear to have jurisdiction over copyright, so their ruling isn’t legally binding?
Re: Re: Re: CAFC jurisdiction?
Their ruling is most certainly legally binding upon the parties in this case: It is the law of the case.
There needs to be some clarification here, because the point of the lawsuit seems to be overshadowed by “copyright of APIs”.
What Google did was nefarious. It took Java, decided what to keep and not use, then ditched the rest and rebrand the the programming language as “Android”. In other words: It’s not Java anymore.
While it’s true one can use the Java SDK to write Android apps, not all the libraries and functions are supported in Android.
I think this is where Oracle sat up and said, “What the fuck?”
I highly doubt Apple or Microsoft would allow any company to sell an OS using its APIs either, and it makes perfect sense.
Now, I certainly don’t agree APIs should be covered by copyright, and Apple and Microsoft make no qualms about any software developers using their APIs within their OS software, but there’s a distinction between Fair Use within the bounds of software and outright copyright infringement of those APIs.
Java is a sandboxed language, and it uses its own virtual compiler. This is why it’s the most widely used language on the planet. Because of this, Java has no ties to any OS. Without additional software, Java cannot access APIs on other systems, either. That’s the whole point of “sandbox”.
Google nefariously sidestepped this approach to claim Fair Use with the development of Android. I don’t think Oracle would have a problem if Google used Java (and its APIs), but it sure didn’t like the fact Java isn’t even mentioned within Android at all.
In fact, head over to Android’s official website and you’ll see Java isn’t mentioned at all. Not only that, it requests a download of the Android SDK, not the Java SDK.
That’s pretty damn low, in my opinion, especially from a multi-billion dollar company who wrote its own database language for its search algorithms.
That, I believe, is the issue here, not that APIs should be copyright (and they shouldn’t be, within the bounds of the OS the APIs are tied to).
Oracle is just using its legal firepower in the only manner it has with this action, relatively new (the Psystar case is completely different, by the way).
I’m not surprised SCOTUS balked, because this really is an issue to be settled by the two companies.
Re: Re:
Other than APIs, exactly what portion(s) of java was copied, word for word copied in the source? Any evidence to back up your claims would be helpful.
Re: Re:
Yours (and CAFC’s and the SG’s) misunderstanding of the issue is that Google did not take any executable Java code. Rather, it designed a version of Java that has the same interface as Oracle’s Java for the purpose of interoperability – so that someone who knows Java can write Android apps with little learning time, as opposed to learning an entire new language.
You’re right that ‘Android’ is not ‘Java’ anymore- That’s the point. Nothing from Java remains, but you can use it the same way you use Java, even if the entire feature set isn’t present.
There’s nothing nefarious about that.
Re: Re: Re:
Google didn’t need to take any executable code because APIs are not executables.
Doesn’t dismiss the fact Sun Microsystems wrote the APIs (now owned by Oracle) which were specifically designed for the sandbox compiler.
By stripping out the APIs to make another OS is nefarious. I didn’t say it was wrong, but damn, does it cross an ethics line.
Google should have written its own APIs, even if they performed identically to the Java APIs.
That’s why I’m on the fence with this. I don’t think it’s wrong, per se, but at the same time, I find it questionable why only the APIs were taken for an entirely different OS.
As a reminder: Google forked Linux for its kernel, but it’s still called Linux. Not the same for Java, which is now Android.
I’m guessing if Google had made this Windows based and took what Windows APIs it wanted and called it Android wouldn’t have Microsoft calling foul?
The only saving grace about all this is Android is open source. That’s why I’m on the fence.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Short side story, I think MS did this as well with J++. actually, I think J++ crossed more lines, than android, which did not cross any (IMO).
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Android’s kernel is called Linux because it is a full fork of a GPL kernel and, as such, they are bound by the terms of that license. If, instead, Google decided to create a UNIX-like kernel all on their own, it would not be called UNIX, because UNIX is an API. Linux is not called UNIX, either, and would not be nefarious.
WINE implements the DirectX API for use on Linux. It is not called DirectX, because it is only the API that is used, not any executable code.
I don’t understand why you think is crosses a line – the default Java threat/use model is vastly different than Android’s intended thread/use model, and as such, while they wanted to make it easy for Java programmers to code for Android, the actual Java implementation was not right for them. The bulk of the work, and the work that should be copyrightable, was not used.’
I’d also like to point out that Sun actually applauded and promoted Google’s use of Java, and it was Oracle that tried to put the breaks on it.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
There’s a big difference here.
WINE translates Windows APIs to use in Linux. Microsoft isn’t going to raise a fuss here because WINE isn’t an OS. It would be no different than someone writing software for Windows to run Linux programs using Linux APIs (though, that would be funny considering most Linux APIs are open source).
@The other AC: No, Java is not open source. At least, not as of today. Rumor has it Oracle is leaning towards making it open source, but time will tell.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
The only real difference is a different standard of interoperability, and that difference is completely irrelevant. One focuses on interoperability of unedited programs, and one focuses on interoperability of knowledge. Even Android can run some Java apps unedited, although – like you said – it doesn’t allow all libraries and functions, just like WINE. This ruling impacts both cases
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
” If, instead, Google decided to create a UNIX-like kernel all on their own, it would not be called UNIX, because UNIX is an API. Linux is not called UNIX, either, and would not be nefarious.”
Almost.
UNIX is not an API. It is an operating system. The OS presents an API, which Linux, BSD, etc., implement in their own way.
If Google decided to create their own UNIX-like OS, the reason they wouldn’t be able to call it UNIX is because that’s a trademark owned by AT&T. It’s the same reason Linux can’t be called UNIX. (I’m ignoring the gray area of the non-all-caps “Unix”).
“WINE implements the DirectX API for use on Linux.”
WINE implements the Windows API generally, not just DirectX.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
AT&T (formerly Southwestern Bell Corporation) does not own the UNIX® trademark
See UNIX® Trademark Usage:
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Ah; I was under the impression UNIX was generally used to refer to the API, not the OS.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
Not at all. POSIX is the API, not UNIX. UNIX is merely one form of POSIX compliant OSes out today.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
is java not open source? Serious question here.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
It was open sourced by Sun under the GPL after the time Google started to implement their own version and the project was far enough that it did not make sense to trash it.
Google’s Java implementation is not licensed under the GPL but rather a more permissive license IIRC.
The FSF is not happy about the liberally licensed non-copylefted Clang/LLVM offering a large amount of GCC compatibility (including its assembler templates) and thus weakening the appeal of the copylefted GCC.
Similarly Oracle is not happy about the liberally licensed non-copylefted version of Java that Google offers. Frankly speaking, Oracle is probably less than happy about offering a GPLed version of Java themselves but that’s what they bought themselves into. But they’ll be damned to grant anybody more freedom than they are forced to.
The difference between the FSF and Oracle is that the FSF is not interested in fighting for their cause at the cost of confusing courts into creating insane legal precedents that threaten the whole software ecosystem.
The FSF tries fighting with words (which is tricky since their point is a rather subtle one many people don’t care about) rather than lawyers.
It looks like a losing battle. In contrast, Oracle’s fight looks like a sore loser’s battle, and it looks like they get to poison the well for everyone in the process.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
That’s why I’m on the fence with this. I don’t think it’s wrong, per se, but at the same time, I find it questionable why only the APIs were taken for an entirely different OS.
Because no api’s were ‘taken.’
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Except the bytecode interpeter is not called android, android is the full package of system, bytecode interpeter, and supporting applications. The bytecode interpter, the functional equivalent of Java was called Dalvik and is currently the ART intepeter (as of 5.0 lollipop).
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Except the bytecode interpeter is not called android, android is the full package of system, bytecode interpeter, and supporting applications. The bytecode interpter, the functional equivalent of Java was called Dalvik and is currently the ART intepeter (as of 5.0 lollipop).
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Uh, that sentence does not make any sense at all. The whole point of an API is to define what it means “to perform identically”. That’s why it cannot be copyrightable because copyright protection would then not just cover a particular work but rather any work obeying the description that the API gives.
I cannot claim copyright interest over any dictionary containing all of the terms “Exeter”, “Sussex”, and “Worcester” in that order just because I wrote such a dictionary myself.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
The whole point of an API is to define what it means “to perform identically”.
The whole point of an API is to make code shareable between applications rather than developers having to rewrite the wheel every time they create a new program.
APIs are bound by the OS and the software/hardware they’re written for. I’ve been programming for 30 years, so I’m confident what an API is used for. Hell, I’ve written my own, as well as encapsulated some by Microsoft.
In this world, Microsoft knows it’s beneficial to share these APIs. Hell, they don’t even charge to use them even if one wants to profit on their own software. It’s a mutually exclusive relationship.
However, I absolutely cannot fathom for one second Microsoft wouldn’t send the hounds after me if I took all their APIs, wrote my own OS, used those APIs, and competed with Windows.
Call it a hunch.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
The whole point of an API is to make code shareable between applications rather than developers having to rewrite the wheel every time they create a new program.
the point of an API is to define functionalities that are independent of specific implementations. What you’re referring to is much more akin to an SDK than an API, as an API encapsulates no code.
APIs are bound by nothing. They can be used on any OS and on any software/hardware. It is the implementation that is bound to an OS, software, and hardware. Java, Python, c#, c/c++ stdlib, etc, all define an API that can be used on any hardware/software provided that there is a corresponding implementation for that hardware/software. They don’t even have to be tied to computers! The best example of this, by the way, is the joke RFC 1149 – IPoAC. It implements the IP API by using carrier pigeons.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
No. That’s just one of the reasons. After all, a program can consume its own APIs and export none of them for sharing.
The principal reason for an API is to create a vocabulary and grammar for programs to use as building blocks. Thus, a function called “add(a, b)” introduces a new verb “add” together with a grammar for saying “add so much and so much together”. Granting someone exclusive rights to declaring “a + b” as “add(a,b)” is therefore no different than granting exclusive rights to “a + b” itself: it’s just two different ways to structure the same operation, using different vocabulary.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
This is the difference lies. What people are confusing with APIs is the structured reference the compiler uses to structure machine code, this the procedure Add is part of that translation code.
It is NOT an API. An API, as the name states, is an Application Programming Interface, with emphasis on the second word.
What makes this problematic is the API general definition. However, what’s important to realize is APIs are NOT transferable between systems.
One cannot use Windows APIs in a Java world, without additional software. In the previous example of using WINE, Windows APIs are translated to work within a Linux environment, but the actual code of the API is not altered.
Again, most companies who wrote the APIs aren’t going to stop programmers from using them, but I certainly don’t believe anyone believes a company will allow another business to take those APIs, verbatim, and create a new operating system.
I feel far too many people are confusing API with ABI, and ABIs are what cannot be covered by copyright. ABIs are what makes APIs work.
For those unaware, an ABI is an Application Binary Interface, which is the compiler code needed to ensure the API of “Add(x,y)” translates correctly, regardless what API is written to use the procedure.”
I’m sure some will argue this is all “one in the same”, but it’s not. APIs are written code. Thus, under current copyright law, they are covered by that law.
So yes, my 30 years of experience in programming still has me confident APIs are written software.
If there’s still confusion, keep this in mind: if you can’t write it, it’s an ABI. If you can, it’s an API.
I don’t believe I’m incorrect in this, but I’m also not sticking my fingers in my ears screaming everyone is wrong.
I really do want to know why people believe APIs aren’t covered under copyright, and so far, all I’ve seen is the confusion between API and ABI.
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
Sorry for the italic bungle. Forgot to close a tag. 🙁
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
So when IBM tells Oracle to stop using the SQL language which was developed mostly by IBM from a paper written in 1970 about the R database and language, they’ll just give it up right?
I mean, come on, Oracle “CLEARLY” stole IBM’s SQL implementation and GASP APIs to make their SQL language compatible with IBMs and the R language.
Oracle cannot have it both ways.
Either APIs cannot be copyrighted, or Oracle has to close down shop and discontinue business as their primary product is based on clearly stollen APIs and Language structure.
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
In the previous example of using WINE, Windows APIs are translated to work within a Linux environment, but the actual code of the API is not altered.
That’s exactly backwards. WINE uses new code to allow programs to use the same Windows API. If it was a different API, my Windows program I’m trying to run in Linux couldn’t work, because it was programmed to the Windows API.
For those unaware, an ABI is an Application Binary Interface, which is the compiler code needed to ensure the API of “Add(x,y)” translates correctly, regardless what API is written to use the procedure.”
Why do you think that particular type of software is not copyrightable?
APIs are written code.
That’s the part where you’re disagreeing with everyone.
If there’s still confusion, keep this in mind: if you can’t write it, it’s an ABI.
You just said an ABI is code – what do you mean, you can’t write it?
I really do want to know why people believe APIs aren’t covered under copyright, and so far, all I’ve seen is the confusion between API and ABI.
I still think you’re the one who’s confused. An API specifies a contract. It doesn’t do anything. An API must then be implemented in code according to the specification. For example, Oracle’s Java SDK is an implementation of the Java API. Google’s Dalvik/Android system is another implementation of the Java API. Same API, different code. If you were correct that APIs are software, then that would be two different APIs, because it’s two different pieces of software, but (ignoring anywhere Google might have deviated from the API) they both implement the same API.
Re: Re: Re:5 Re:
your problem is that you are conflating API with Compiled Library.
Everything you believe to be true about an API is true about a Compiled Library, but is completely false about an API.
And the most important word in API is Interface.
I am not sure how you have been a software engineer for 30 years and still do not understand the difference.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
wow… you programmed for 30 years and don’t full understand what an api is.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
They call it “getting in the zone”. Just spend 30 years in the zone and see what happens…
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
“APIs are bound by the OS and the software/hardware they’re written for.”
And yet java is held up as an example of cross platform interoperability and code portability – huh, go figure.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
However, I absolutely cannot fathom for one second Microsoft wouldn’t send the hounds after me if I took all their APIs, wrote my own OS, used those APIs, and competed with Windows.
Oh yeah? It already happened. http://reactos.com/ And Microsoft hasn’t sued them.
And neither did they sue https://www.winehq.org/ who basically implemented all the user-space APIs of Windows on Unix.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
If Microsoft believed that you could not copyright an API they would not sue, but this ruling makes it look like you can and so that may change in the future.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Didn’t PCLinuxOS and others try that: distributing a linux+wine system which was supposed to compete with Windows and run windows applications? They weren’t very successful, but they tried.
There are also F/OSS implementations of parts of .Net and Silverlight.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
google did write its own api’s. They just used the same names.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Incorrect. the names are the API. it’s the implementation that google wrote.
Re: Re: Re:4 Re:
so, correct?
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Had google called Java to its version of the Java API, Oracle might have sued Google for trademark infringement, and this time on much firmer ground than the ridiculous copyright claim.
Now, independent implementation of APIs and languages is quite common. Wine implements (a subset of) the Windows API and they call it Wine, not Windows. There is also Mono implementing Microsoft .NET.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
You’re confused.
Google should have written its own APIs, even if they performed identically to the Java APIs.
Then they are the same. They wrote libraries, by themselves, without copying the inner workings. And in order to be compatible to Java programs, they NEED to provide the same APIs. “perform identically” with regards to APIs means “are exactly the same”.
But since they only covered a part of Java, and didn’t base it on the Java source, they needed to rename it for trademark reasons.
So there is absolutely nothing “nefarious”.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Sun Microsystems wrote the APIs (now owned by Oracle) which were specifically designed for the sandbox compiler.
This is actually the crux of the issue. Oracle’s license specifies that the Java bytecode that is produced be compatible with the JVM. (I don’t know if it was the same under Sun.) Google actually implemented their own VM (Dalvik), and much of its bytecode was incompatible with the JVM – which is unsurprising given the need to run efficiently on mobile devices.
Google should have written its own APIs, even if they performed identically to the Java APIs.
This would be disastrous, especially for open-source projects. For example, it would require that Mono write its own API’s. This would defeat the entire purpose of Mono, and force everyone who used the C# API’s to use the Windows CLR (and possibly pay royalties to do so). Likewise, Unix could copyright what is now the POSIX standard (it’s an API, after all), which would make other implementations of this standard be unlawful without a license.
By stripping out the APIs to make another OS is nefarious. I didn’t say it was wrong, but damn, does it cross an ethics line.
I don’t see why. For example, Linux could feel free to not implement some of the POSIX system calls, and I don’t think there would be anything nefarious about it.
Also, the parts of the API that Google stripped out are the parts that were not relevant to a mobile language (like the Swing API).
As a reminder: Google forked Linux for its kernel, but it’s still called Linux. Not the same for Java, which is now Android.
First: Java is a programming language, not an operating system. Android is an operating system, but applications for it are written in the Java programming language, using the Android API’s to communicate with the OS. (Or not, if you use something like PhoneGap.)
Second: the OS is called Android, just as Ubuntu is called Ubuntu. The kernel may be a fork of Linux, but the kernel is not the entirety of the OS – at least, not how you define it. (The technical definition is that the kernel is the OS, and toolkits or software packages are not part of it. For example, the Bash shell is not part of the Linux OS.)
Re: Re: Re:
sort of like java taking the syntax, OO, from C++?
Re: Re: Java, Android, API
The precedent of PL/I subset G is similar: PL/I’s implementation was owned by IBM and it was huge. Folks who wanted to re-implement a (pretty big, but less than the whole thing) PL/I on other platforms implemented PL/I subset G as a reliably defined subset. But they did have the courtesy to still have PL/I in the name and not independently claim rights over the definition of the language. Java’s interfaces and calls being cribbed and called something different is more like some parts of UNIX being re-implemented and called Linux, although even that name is an ode to the original OS interface and behavior that was copied (as distinct from being a new invention). Subverting control of future forks of a copied interface and behavior causes real problems: Java and Android will surely diverge and that will cause problems.
Re: Re: Re: Java, Android, API
Java’s interfaces and calls being cribbed and called something different…
Why did you choose the word “cribbed”? They didn’t copy anything from Java. They wrote their own virtual machine that implements the Java API.
Subverting control of future forks of a copied interface and behavior causes real problems: Java and Android will surely diverge and that will cause problems.
Depends what you mean by diverge – Android already adds lots of stuff that isn’t in the Java SDK, and that’s no problem. If you mean the Android SDK will start changing the semantics of things that are already defined in the Java API, I’m not at all certain they’re going to do that.
Re: Re:
If anything, the fact that Google doesn’t mention Java is a point in their favor. If they offered you “Java” without conforming to Java’s specifications it would hurt Java’s reputation as a portable, hardware-neutral platform. Choosing not to call it Java means Google is free to adapt the APIs to its needs without introducing confusion. It doesn’t hurt Java because the Android SDK isn’t Java.
Re: Are you stupid or just dumb?
APIs cannot by copyrighted, this is how things have been since day 1 with computers, where programming was handled by moving wires around.
It’s obvious in the EU, where APIs and languages themselves cannot by copyrighted.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/e-u-court-rules-programming-languages-not-copyrightable/
It was obvious to the judge who initially ruled for Google, that had actually programmed.
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120531173633275
Perhaps if Obama or the SCOTUS members had actually pulled their heads out of their asses and their hands out of Oracle’s checkbook, they’d actually understand the “WHY” of APIs not being copyrightable.
Without APIs being clearly available and free to use, nobody would have jumped on anybody’s bandwagon / programming languages, and every vendor would have developed their own, proprietary languages, apis, etc…
We never would have had the IBM compatible PC, and we’d still be using Lotus 123 since Microsoft would not have been able to COPY Lotus’s APIs to make Excel.
We’d be living in a world where innovation was slowed to such a crawl, that the 386 might be something just released as the newest, fastest, bestest thing, with 1 or 2 programs that it could run, everything else being locked down by copryight.
Having languages and APIs under control of copyrights would be the end of our ability to build new and innovative projects by standing on the shoulders of our predecessors.
So, to answer the question in my subject – Are you stupd or just Dumb?
Either way, you’re clueless about the case and why SCOTUS got it wrong, way wrong.
Re: Re:
Re: Re: Re:
Finally somebody here seems to know, and state, the truth about the roots of Android. I would only add that the genesis of Java was not Sun developers but rather a huge amount of contributions to various committees that decided if the code, the APIs and/or the classes submitted could be ‘officially’ accepted.
Re: You are contradicting yourself...
Now, I certainly don’t agree APIs should be covered by copyright, and Apple and Microsoft make no qualms about any software developers using their APIs within their OS software, but there’s a distinction between Fair Use within the bounds of software and outright copyright infringement of those APIs.
The statement “I don’t agree that API’s should be covered by copyright”, and the statement “there’s a distinction between Fair Use within the bounds of software and outright copyright infringement of those APIs” are fundamentally incompatible. If API’s shouldn’t be covered by copyright, then there can’t be infringement, and fair use isn’t a consideration. If they aren’t covered by copyright, anyone can use them, at any time, for any reason.
Re: "Nefarious" == "Computer Science"
Bought?
This is incorrect. The Obama Administration hasn’t “bought” these arguments; they’re one of the groups who are selling them. The Obama Administration’s copyright maximalism has been paid for by campaign contributions and deals in smoke-filled rooms.
Re: Bought?
LOL. Obama’s administration is littered with ex-Google types. The infestation is so complete that they dodged a US anti-trust lawsuit because of it.
Re: Re: Bought?
citation or it didn’t happen
Re: Re: Bought?
Obama’s administration is littered with ex-Google types.
Is that why they were arguing for Oracle?
Re: Re: Bought?
Obama’s administration is littered with ex-Google types. The infestation is so complete that they dodged a US anti-trust lawsuit because of it.
This is pretty obviously bullshit. If the Obama administration is “littered with ex-Google types,” it’s only because Google is a big company that has hired lots of smart people, and the administration wants smart people.
But that “if” is wrong. The “ex-Google types” that are in the administration are far, far outweighed by the “types” that were previously lobbyists for big media companies.
And the whole “dodging a US anti-trust lawsuit” thing is stupid and ridiculous propaganda. Techdirt covered it here.
This case is why I’ll never bother to learn Java despite being a programmer. I don’t want to have to deal with the risk of Oracle suing me over something stupid like this case. I’ll use programming languages with API’s from people who are much less lawsuit happy.
Re: Re:
Oracle isn’t suing people making java programs, it’s suing people who created a non-compatible version of their proprietary language, with the express purpose of avoiding paying a royalty.
Re: Re: Re:
Why would they pay a royalty if they did not use any part of the system other than the c/c++ syntax and lib/function names?
Re: Re: Re: Re:
c/c++ function names that is. e.g. math, string, etc..
Re: Re: Re:
If and API is copyrightable then referencing the API in my java program is copyright infringement.
Oracle might not be going after java programmers TODAY, but if an API is found to be copyrightable I suspect tomorrow will be much different.
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Here come the API trolls.
Re: Re: Re:
Which is why Google didn’t call it Java.
Unlike Microsoft which licensed Java from Sun, created an incompatible version, called it Java and got sued.
You can’t copyright a language, although you can trademark a language name.
This is saddening, but not surprising considering the current Supreme Court. These are the same people who brought us Citizens United. They love ruling in favor of big-money incumbents and screwing over the little guy. (And no, before anyone starts freaking out in response to that, Google isn’t a “little guy” here, but the Android ecosystem that Oracle is trying to gain leverage over is, and that’s the real victim of a bad ruling like this.)
Re: Re:
Google isn’t a “little guy” here, but the Android ecosystem that Oracle is trying to gain leverage over is,
Apparently there are over a billion Android users, and there were over a billion Android devices shipped just in Q4 2014. Not really a little guy by any standards.
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Those users do not have any power – they are the product. Having control over those billion users is what this fight is about. Oracle desperately desires those users, and is willing to go to any lengths to get some control over them.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oracle desperately desires those users, and is willing to go to any lengths to get some control over them.
What is Oracle asking for in this suit other than money?
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
The ability to require a contract through them before you can use their API.
To further the language analogy
code declarations and implementations are like dictionary entries. Dictionary entries contain two parts: Syntax information (spelling, pronunciation, part of speech, etc) and the definition.
Syntax information allows writers to correctly use a word, as well as allows readers to determine if a word is used correctly. For example, if i tell you that the word feldercrump is a noun, then you can write the following sentences, and see that the sentence “I saw a feldercrump” uses it correctly, whereas “I feldercrump on Sunday” does not.
However, without the Definition, no one can extract any meaning from the sentence. You can’t know what idea backs the word feldercrump. Even still, different dictionaries might contain similar but different definitions for the word, even though the syntax information stays the same.
The former is equivalent to code declarations: they do not instruct computers, but rather, allow compilers, interpreters, and programmers to know how code is to be used, as well as determine whether code is used correctly, but there is no code to run or execute. Implementations, however, are the definition of a function, and consist of actual computer instructions. Any function used to implement a particular interface can be used to give meaning to a use of the interface.
Re: To further the language analogy
Correct in the minor but Incorrect in the main. There are various ways to define the semantics of a function. The implementation can be one, but has problems. We shall not get into the differences of Denotational Semantics verses Operational Semantics verses Axiomatic Semantics. This is a vast enough field as it is.
There are many ways to implement a function that will provide the same semantics. Each one different in some way, except maybe in the simplest of cases.
API’s are a specification for use, it tells you the name you use to call, the kinds of parameters you need to supply with the call and what is expected back. However, it tells you nothing about how it is implemented. There should be some description of the semantics associated with the specification of the API as a part of the specification.
The implementation should conform to the semantics applicable to the API. The implementation should not be the “semantic definition” of the API.
Subtle that this point is, there is a significant difference between conformance and defining the semantics associated with an API.
Too often, however, the designers of an API or an implementation of an API base the semantic definition on their standard implementation and not on some other more appropriate methodology. This usually means that errors in the semantic definition caused by the implementation will flow into other areas.
This is what happens...
This is what happens when the technologically clueless have the power to determine how we use tech. In any case, Oracle is going to SORELY regret that they pushed this so far! Gee, do Codd and Date hold rights to the relational algebra and calculus used to create the Oracle RDB API’s?
Re: This is what happens...
Same old story with the O. O buys good company, customers flee.
Designing and specifying the API was creative work. Google as usual just trying to steal value.
Very simple when put that way, isn’t it?
What chiselers those Googlers are. They even stole the name “google”!
And yet again, Masnick can’t see this any other way than Google’s. We all know why. Take the Copia link.
Re: Designing and specifying the API was creative work. Google as usual just trying to steal value.
Of course EVERY company copies apis, therefore there’s not a single one that isn’t a thief by your logic.
Yes, even oracle
Re: Designing and specifying the API was creative work. Google as usual just trying to steal value.
You’re thinking of Googol or 10^100.
Google is the search engine.
Notice the difference in spelling.
Re: Re: Designing and specifying the API was creative work. Google as usual just trying to steal value.
That’s because they couldn’t Google the right way to spell it.
What disturbs me is that the gov’t can influence our highest court in the first place. SCOTUS is the only thing this country has to keep the gov’t in line when they get things wrong. I also believe that any case appealed to them should be heard. I’m getting tired of watching them punt on cases just because they don’t want to hear them.
You know what? I hereby copyright the five paragraph essay. Here is the code:
Topic()
{
introduction
establish basic premise
establish three primary discussion points
define topic sentence
paragraph one
describe supporting point one
describe any opposing viewpoints
rebut opposing viewpoints
paragraph two
describe supporting point two
describe any opposing viewpoints
rebut opposing viewpoints
paragraph three
describe supporting point three
describe any opposing viewpoints
rebut opposing viewpoints
conclusion
restate thesis and how supporting points prove main argument
wrap up argument and counter-arguments
conclusion sentence
}
Anyone using this format on a computer now owes me royalties for its use. If you need me I’ll be on a college tour…high schools are for next year. Be back later with yacht.
This case has taught me
The comments here (and in every prior story on this topic) have taught me one thing very clearly: a shockingly small number of people have the first clue what an API actually is, while at the same time believing they know what is being discussed.
Also, it’s apparently a very difficult concept to explain to people.
I’m not sure what to do about this.
Re: This case has taught me
More people than you realize know it’s an “Application Programming Interface” allowing one client to work with another one behind the scenes.
Re: Re: This case has taught me
As if to prove Johns point, out of the woodwork…
Re: Re: This case has taught me
allowing one client to work with another one behind the scenes
That’s not quite what an API is. An API says something like: “if you have an instance of a class called Stack, and invoke a method called pop() on it, it will remove and return an object (of a specific type) that is semantically on the top of the stack.”
A non-Java example of an API is the C++ STL (Standard Template Library). You can find the entire API for the STL here:
http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/
If you follow that link, you may say to yourself, “hey, I can’t download any code from this site!”
Indeed, you can’t – because and API is not actually code (and certainly not executable code). It is simply a specification.
Re: This case has taught me
That’s because programmers seem to use the word “API” as a synonym with “SDK” a lot. The two are superficially related…an SDK is a specific implementation of an API for use by other developers…but the API is essentially what you’d be left with if you deleted all the code from the SDK and left comments and variable declarations behind.
Or maybe I don’t understand it, and if my understanding is flawed, please let me know. But to use a code example, this is something you’d see in a (really crappy) SDK:
addtwoints(int x, int y)
{
// Add x and y to return an integer
int z;
z = x + y;
return z;
}
And this is the API for the same function:
addtwoints(int x, int y)
{
// Add x and y to return an integer
}
Sure, they both look like code. But anyone with even a shred of programming knowledge knows that second one doesn’t actually do anything. They are also probably offended at my horrid example and are confused as to what crazy combination of syntax I’m using (it’s been a while since I’ve touched anything based on the C language, sorry).
Again, please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that’s what an API is.
Google… those poor little shits.
CAFC and Obama Administration
I wonder if these folk, especially Solicitor General Donald Verrilli, are aware of the Dunning-Kruger Effect?
Link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDunning%25E2%2580%2593Kruger_effect&ei=yP6RVf3MOMjusAXkgYz4CA&usg=AFQjCNHdFxS5Ah_HTg_qxfHGGMUYQzRviA&bvm=bv.96783405,d.b2w
This ruling is a major blow for fast pace innovation, compatibility, and interoperability in computer software and hardware.
The only thing Google did was write their own bytecode interpreter (Dalvik) to be interoperable with standard Java API calls. So that Java software developers didn’t have to rewrite the API calls in their software in order to be compatible with Dalvik.
Note: Google didn’t copy/paste any libraries or source code from Java’s bytecode interpreter. Google wrote their own bytecode interpreter (Dalvik) from scratch.
That’s called working smarter not harder and reducing time and money for developers who’ve already wrote their software using the standardized API calls in Java.
It appears to me that Java’s not pissed because Google standardizing the Java API. They’re pissed because Google wrote their own bytecode interpreter from scratch that cuts Java’s bytecode interpreter out of the loop.
Abolish Copyright
Period.
What if I implement an interface?
Lots of languages, including Java, have the concept of an interface. You can implement custom functions, drivers, whatever by implementing the interface. This allows you to distribute your code for use by others who can pick between implementations but code to the same interface. Am I know on the hook to pay licensing fee for implementing the interface?
Broken
A dysfunctional legal system has no legitimacy.
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